An exercise in thoughtful discourse…

Our book, The Real World of College, was published a couple of weeks ago on March 22, 2022. One of the first reviews came out in the publication “Education Next.” The review pointed out the virtues of the book, but also raised some issues. You may access the review here.  

In scholarly fashion, we had a subsequent correspondence with the reviewer Frederick Hess and the editor Marty West, both valued colleagues. They have kindly given us permission to reprint the exchange. 

At a time when there’s so much talking past one another, we greatly value the opportunity to have a conversation even—perhaps especially—when we’re not wholly on the same page. 

Howard Gardner and Wendy Fischman

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March 23, 2022 3:17 PM 

Dear Rick, 

Wendy Fischman and I read with considerable interest your review of our book, just posted on the web. News travels fast—one colleague of ours, a current master’s student at HGSE, already read it while preparing for one of his classes. 

We appreciate the care that you have taken in reading the book, and Marty's decision to commission and publish the review. And we agree with much of what you wrote. 

But we wish that you had made a clearer distinction between parts II and III of the book, where we describe what we learned, as carefully as possible; and part 4 where we give our recommendations. We use the comparison of an ethnographer, on the one end, and a clinician asked for recommendations (as we clearly would be, after such a large study), on the other. Readers need not endorse our recommendations, and indeed, we make different recommendations for four ideal-type campuses and for several discrete constituencies. 

You raise the point about whether HEDCAP is a good indication of learning–in fact, we'd be grateful for ANY signs of learning. And as for the four mental models, we make a sharp distinction between 'transactional all the way" and "transactional as a means of becoming transformational." 

We'd welcome any thoughts. 

Hope you and your family are as well as possible at this difficult time. 

All good wishes, 

Howard (also for Wendy) 

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March 23, 2022 3:45 PM

Dear Howard,

It's very nice to hear from you. we're fine, and I hope you and Wendy are well. I'm gratified that you took the time to read the review and respond.

Many thanks for your gracious note. I did read the book with great curiosity. Admittedly, I approach it predisposed to like it, as I think there's a desperate need for this kind of serious reflection on the state of college. And as someone who has done my own fair share of interviews and field visits, I was deeply impressed by the size and depth of your efforts.

Thanks for raising the questions you do. I appreciate here, as I did in the reading, your effort to draw the distinction between ethnographer and clinician. I think it's a useful way to think about the tasks you and Wendy tackled. Of course, in speaking to colleges, foundations, or policymakers, the authority of the data collection, interviewing, and analysis (the ethnography) is what lends credence to the diagnosis and prescription. So, while I appreciate that the two tasks feel distinct to you, as the authors, I don't think that distinction will generally be understood by the audience, and I think the coupling of them in the volume probably makes it harder to make the case that they're two distinct projects.

That's certainly a fair point on the shades of "transactional." There I fear I have to simply plead word count constraint. But, if I'd had room to go into that in more depth, I'd have suggested that I understand your distinction but that I fear you wind up with the same complicated dance of nonjudgmental descriptive ethnography vs. subjective determination (but just at a different break-point along the continuum).

Signs of any learning at all, indeed! I'm with you. It's a tough nut to crack. I respect the effort that went into developing, coding, and compiling HEDCAP. But, as you note, it's a limited measure that may not be able to shoulder the weight it's asked to bear.

I hope this is a bit helpful in understanding my take, even if you find my concerns unpersuasive (trust me, I'm well used to that). Congrats on this project and good luck with your ambitious efforts.

Best,

Rick